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| Old photo of Hamp and I at the KHP in 2013. |
So here's an interesting situation that came up at the recent KDA/Pony Cup Show at the Kentucky Horse Park. I went down to watch some friends show on Saturday, and ended up meeting a gal who had the following happen to her.
The judge is an extremely well-known judge. One I have shown under several times. She is generally well-respected.
The exhibitor goes into show 4-3. The trot work goes great, but when she starts the canter work she starts to feel her horse is just not quite right. Once she attempts a pirouette, she is now positive the horse is off so she stops to excuse herself.
The judge says no. You have to continue.
.... so this exhibitor, knowing her horse is not right, goes off course numerous times in order to get eliminated so that she can stop the test. Eventually the judge says "That's it!!" and eliminates her. The judge basically accuses her of score chasing, which is why she refused to excuse her when she asked.
We all know score chasers. Those who excuse themselves when they know they aren't going to get a score they deem good enough. This girl is not one of them. But even so, does a judge have the right to just say no?
If you had been in this position, what would you have done?
What? No way! I'd have just, walked out. That's obnoxious.
ReplyDeleteWow, what a tough situation for both judge and competitor. I have no idea what I'd do, honestly. Freeze, maybe? No idea.
ReplyDeleteOh that's tough! I'm kind of a bitch, especially about horse welfare. I mean, what was the judge going to do, put a gun to my head?
ReplyDeleteThat's a lot of pressure, especially with a well-respected judge.
I would've just walked out, honestly. The judge obviously didn't see the same problem as the rider, but if the rider says they need to go, just let them! I'd feel so guilty if I was that judge.
ReplyDeleteHmm. I would have tried to explain that my horse didn't feel right and if the judge still refused that would have been a first for me. I get pretty angry when people are like that though and probably would have just left the ring anyway.
ReplyDeleteGood for your friend for sticking with her guns in spite of what seems like a grumpy judge (at least that day).
idk. i think judge's editorials should be kept to the scores and comments, and maybe a few words after the test. the judge can direct the action in terms of beginning the test, acknowledging the rider's right to proceed upon saluting, and the final salute. or also in circumstances where the rider goes off course or otherwise doesn't follow the test directives.
ReplyDeleteliterally every single other thing tho? riders can do as they please. including leaving, if they wish. i'd be curious to see the rule saying "you must stay in the court until the judge allows you to leave, no matter what!"
wow. I have not heard of that happening. I would think that it is up to the person showing- if your horse is off then you need to do what you have to do. What would have happened if she just left the ring I wonder? Or hopped off.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great question, so I did some research. Apparently, you can ask the judge for permission to be excused, but they must grant it. If they don't, you can eliminate yourself, either like your friend did or by leaving the arena. However, "GR1305.2 states that if an exhibitor voluntarily removes a horse from the ring without the permission of the judge, then the show committee will disqualify the exhibitor and all of his or her entries from all future classes at that competition, and all prizes and entry fees for the entire competition will be forfeited."
ReplyDeleteGood article on it here: https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition/RodeRules.pdf
If I knew my horse was off, I would probably have politely told the judge that in good conscience I could not possibly continue, and that I planned to eliminate myself by leaving and that I understood the consequences of doing so. And I would not have ridden for her again.
I think as riders we always have to put safety first: both our safety and the safety of our horses. Had I been in the middle of a jump course (because I don't do dressage) and my horse felt lame/very uncomfortable, I absolutely would have retired in the middle of it, regardless of whether it was a rated show or not. It's a shame that this judge made a call like that, when she is normally very well-respected. There are the 'score chasers' out there in every ring, but at the end of the day, our horses' well being is too important to finish out a test/jumping round/XC round if we feel like they are in pain.
ReplyDeleteNot something I've ever encountered, in my limited dressage showing. What happens if the rider dismounts or just walks out of the ring? Worse than a horrible score?
ReplyDeleteWhat a conundrum. What would have happened if, when she first stopped and excused herself and the judge said no, if the competitor had just walked out of the ring? Would he judge have turned in the score up to that moment with 0s on the rest of the movement? I understand concerns about score chasing, but if my horse was off I think I would have just excused myself and left, regardless of what the judge said. The judge can't *make* you finish the test. Although granted the show world is not huge so I can understand concerns of pissing off a judge you're going to have to show in front of again.... Hmmmm. Definitely a conundrum!
ReplyDeleteI have never thought of this. It doesn't really happen in the hunter world. Very interesting.
ReplyDeleteI would have done what your friend did.
ReplyDeleteIf you excuse yourself, does it go on your record as a withdrawal? If yes, then I think you should be able to excuse yourself any time you want. The score chasers would be pretty obvious because their records would be full of withdrawals.
ReplyDeleteIn endurance, you can rider option for any reason (your horse is NQR, you don't feel well, you want to just go to your trailer and start drinking). They go down as RO, which is different from being pulled by a vet. There are people in endurance who ride to win, and don't care if they get pulled. Their records look distinctly different from people who rider option without running their horse into the ground. And THOSE records look distinctly different from the people who just aren't competitive and ride half a ride and then stop.
It would seem like it would be in everyone's best interest to record when a rider excuses themselves, without the judge worrying about why the rider chose to do so. If they're doing it for the best interest of the horse, it's terrible to make them finish the test (although, I suppose you could just walk until the judge rings you out). Plus a DQ looks worse than a withdrawal, doesn't it? And if you're doing it to chase scores, well, people will see that if you have all high scores and 99 withdrawals. And THAT would look worse than a DQ, wouldn't it?
WOW. I would have just calmly walked my horse out of the ring and spoken with the TD. There is no judge in this world that tells me what I can do with my horse, especially if I think my horse is off. No. Way. In. Hell.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering, did the girl say that her horse was off/lame?
ReplyDeleteI think when the judge said "No", it may have been a good opportunity to discuss why the rider wanted to retire. Regardless, I don't think the judge was appropriate in her reaction...
I would have been pissed and most likely would have told the judge no I will not continue as my horse does not feel sound. If they had insisted after that, I would have turned and left the ring.
ReplyDeleteI totally get that there are people who chase scores and such and give the judge the benefit of the doubt. If they had allowed the dismissal after being told that the horse is off, then that is okay. In my opinion, horse welfare should be the top priority.
But I'm not a competitive rider and thus am not frustrated by people who go around the rules to win. My feelings are that if there is a competition involved, those who are in it just to win will find ways around any and all obstacles to that win. It's hard for a judge or any organization to control that, imo.
I don't believe the judge has a right to say no. In the end, score chasers are penalized by loss of money and time. But it isn't the judge's call to determine the true motive behind the person looking to withdraw.
ReplyDeleteWow. Are judges even allowed to refuse you the right to retire?
ReplyDeleteI wish I had known you would be there, it would have been great to meet you!! Honestly I would have just left anyway but I'm not good in those situations haha.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who has had to excuse myself from the ring before, I don't think a judge has the right to say no. They can be skeptical, but if you're on your horse and things aren't feeling how they should, you should be able to leave regardless of the judge's opinion on things.
ReplyDeleteOh absolutely not, I would have been livid. If you're asking to be excused because you can feel your horse isn't right, the judge should absolutely allow (and encourage!) that. Why would they want to encourage someone to continue to show a horse who is off?
ReplyDeleteI would have turned around and left anyways.... Can you do that at a dressage show? I have no idea. What's she going to do, chase you down and stand in front of you?
I...don't think the judge can do that? If you withdraw, you withdraw. I don't have a rule book handy, but honestly? I'd just leave the ring and go talk to management. My horse comes first. End of story.
ReplyDeleteI'm fairly certain that's not allowed. I think if you eliminate yourself, you can't finish the rest of the competition, but if your horse is off, it's pretty much a given that you're not going to anyway. It sucks that there are score chasers out there, but if someone feels like they don't want to continue for whatever reason, at the end of the day, the competitor has wasted their own money and time, while the judge is getting paid regardless. Not her call.
ReplyDeleteI hope she went and spoke to the TD and show manager about the judges comment and the fact she was concerned about her horse. Then I would have filed a comment form re the judge with USDF (or USEF).
ReplyDeleteBad form on the judges part. And bet I can guess who the judge was.
Very late to the party here but NO I don't believe a judge should force a competitor to continue. If the horse is not right and the rider feels it, and the judge makes them continue on, and then the horse gets injured further.... wtf? The rider paid to be there either way, it's not like she's getting her money back.
ReplyDeleteIn eventing everyone stands up and applauds when people retire from any part of it, because of the good horsemanship it is considered to be. Coming from that background, I feel very strongly that this isn't acceptable. Maybe from your trainer, but not from a judge.
So I'm doing the "L" Program right now and we talked about being excused and the instructor of the course (and an "S" judge) basically said to always excuse them. Soo Idk why this judge was being so picky
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